Bad Habits?

[Glenn Stanfield]

Hello,

I'm new here and while this is not my first post it is the first thread I've started so a bit about myself. I've "played" guitar for almost 50 years, and still can't play very well. My musical start was violin for about a year, then String bass for another (elementary school orchestra needed a bass), then on to guitar. Learned basic music theory.

Now, nearing retirement, I've decided to do something I've wanted to for years, and that's learn Lap Steel. I have one ordered from Melbert and hope to have it in a month or two. To be honest I have never even held a Lap Steel, so I'm literally starting from nothing. I have a few amps, and a Peterson tuner so I'm set in that respect.

Now to the reason for this post. I've learned, through the years, one of the best ways to break a bad habit is simply to not start it in the first place. Since I'm freshly starting I thought this is the right time to address this. So I'm asking the vast experience on this forum: what are some of the bad habits you've had to break? What's the best way to avoid them?

[Peter Jacobs]

Welcome, Glenn. This 8s a great community, so ask lots of questions and you’ll get a ton of friendly advice.

The habit I needed to break was using too much of my forearm to do vibrato. That’s what happens when you start playing without a lot of live players or video to learn from. Of course, I’m using a Lap Dawg bar, not a round one, so I might use a different motion than some others. The point is, learn how to do basic things efficiently so you can focus on more complicated moves.

[Glenn Stanfield]

Vibrato using forearm, this is exactly the type of bad habit I'm asking for. Something I can work on learning to perform correctly from the start.

How do you vibrato now? I'm envisioning a wrist action, saving the forearm movement for fretting? Or is it something else? I have a couple of Shubb bars similar to what you use I think.

Thank you for this Peter!!!

[Peter Jacobs]

It’s more that I use my fingers, so very little wrist movement. Look at videos of Megan Lovell of the band Larkin Poe. That’s what I’m going for (and occasionally accomplish). https://youtu.be/0_A0V_HYjds?si=3pu4TFeMJ1N_xJkw

Another potentially useful video I found: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQ3x5pjAJkw -- he uses a bit more wrist

[Glenn Stanfield]

Ok, I see what you're talking about with Megan Lovell, but havent finished the second video yet. Both of those channels just got a new subscriber.

The motion Megan uses is different than I've ever used, it's going to be a challenge for sure but the results worth it.

Once again, I appreciate your time Peter.

[Michael Kiese]

what are some of the bad habits you've had to break? What's the best way to avoid them?

Aloha Glenn!

Always great to see another steel player be born!

I think some of the most common mistakes I see beginners make are:

1) using too much treble on their amp. Steel guitar by nature has an overabundance of high end frequency, you'll do better actually turning DOWN the treble on your amp. When in doubt, turn the treble all the way down on your amp, and then sneak it in slowly. Too many players assume they need to crank the treble, so their tone will be harsh and brittle. Hurts the ears.

2) Hovering your hands above the strings. It's OK to let the blades of your palms rest on the strings. It actually aides muting, which is a GOOD thing.

3) Thinking you need expensive gear. Judge with your ears, not your pocketbook. Being able to achieve a pleasing sound is uncorrelated with the price of your steel, or your amp.

At the end of the day, steel is such a pure and simple instrument. It's really all in your hands.

If you can get the strings to sing on an inexpensive 22.5" short scale steel, those same set of strings will sing through a nice 22.5" short scale vintage steel, and you'll be transported to the era it was made in.

Wishing you countless hours of discovery and happy practicing!

Enjoy!

[Glenn Stanfield]

Aloha Mike!

1) I noticed this with a a slide on my standard guitar but just figured that's how it is. I will certainly take your advice and adjust the Treble.

2) Noted, I will learn to mute with my hands. I have obtained and am studying Dave Magram's blocking guide which I believe will be a great help for non pedal steel as well as the pedal steel it is written for.

3) Good point, but I'm already committed to a course of action. I own several tube amps that I built. A guitar is under construction, not overly expensive but will be a quality instrument IMHO. However I will wait to obtain any historical instruments.

Always great to see another steel player be born!
...

...
Wishing you countless hours of discovery and happy practicing!

Enjoy!

Encouragement like this is GOLD. Mahalo!!!

Aloha hoʻi!

[Michael Kiese]

Aloha Mike!

1) I noticed this with a a slide on my standard guitar but just figured that's how it is. I will certainly take your advice and adjust the Treble.

2) Noted, I will learn to mute with my hands. I have obtained and am studying Dave Magram's blocking guide which I believe will be a great help for non pedal steel as well as the pedal steel it is written for.

3) Good point, but I'm already committed to a course of action. I own several tube amps that I built. A guitar is under construction, not overly expensive but will be a quality instrument IMHO. However I will wait to obtain any historical instruments.

Always great to see another steel player be born!
...

...
Wishing you countless hours of discovery and happy practicing!

Enjoy!

Encouragement like this is GOLD. Mahalo!!!

Aloha hoʻi!

My pleasure, Glenn!

Ain't nothing wrong with getting quality gear and vintage instruments, either! I ain't mad at ya! lol.

I only mention that because not everyone will have the opportunity or the means to get an expensive or vintage instrument.

I have a few 1960's Supros with the Valco pups that cost me like $300 that sound amazing.

Sometimes the least expensive thing that comes your way can be SURPRISINGLY good.

-Enjoy!

[Fred Treece]

I dinked around with 5 different tunings before I realized I didn’t really know any of them, and I know more theory than is good for me, so that wasn’t the problem.
Find a tuning you like and stick with it for at least a year.

Not knowing the difference between what is merely difficult to play and attempting to play it with bad technique.
Learn how to ergonomically sit with your guitar in a stable position and get your left and right hand foundations solid.

Take a couple of lessons online or in person. Many free Lessons With Troy Brenningmeyer on YouTube. He has a great easy-going manner, and don’t be deceived by how easy he makes everything look.

Watch Doug Beaumier and Mike Neer videos.
Listen to Bill Hatcher music.

[Glenn Stanfield]

I only mention that because not everyone will have the opportunity or the means to get an expensive or vintage instrument.

And here I was thinking it's all about me


Hello Fred!

Thank you sir for the thoughtful advice. I will certainly keep these in mind as I begin.

As always, your time to make these posts is greatly appreciated.

[Troy Henning]

I only started playing last year, but what I learned so far find a way to sit comfortably so it's easy to play. I also put some thin foam on the bottom of my lap steel with double sided tape, the guitar kept sliding around. I ended up with an adjustable piano bench, and finally decided to get a keyboard stand as well. It really helped with my posture, and getting into a comfortable spot so I could focus on learning and playing vs not making my back hurt. I also got a few different bars to try out - I think I have a Lap Dawg, Shubb RR2, and a couple of different round bars. I play with all of them and swap when I feel like it. Fortunately they are all comfortable. I'm hoping to tackle a pedal steel soon, so I wanted to longer bars to get used to.

I agree that you should find a tuning and try to focus on it, I almost switched from C6 and I'm glad I didn't. I figure I can always do it once I really get it down.

Good luck and enjoy!

[Glenn Wilde]

+1 on not trying too many tunings too soon, find one you like and learn it thoroughly, I suggest high bass A or G ( Dobro tuning) or C6-A6, there's a bunch of instructions in these tunings. The Jerry Byrd book is a good one, also listen to the Hawaiian greats!

[Glenn Stanfield]

Thank you Troy and Glenn for taking the time to give me advice.

Sticking to and learning a single tuning seems a very inportant piece of advice given the number of times its been brought up. Open E is what I intend to start with. Rock and Blues are my preferred genres, not really into country so I don't think the standard C6 would be the one for me to start with from what I've read so far. Unfortunately there's not a lot of instruction for E, but hopefully I'll find enough.

Posture has also been mentioned a few times. Definitely something I need to pay attention to.

I've got a few Shubb bars so far, and another of the same type. I should probably get a round bar or two so I can try them out as well. Any suggestions on this would be great. I'll have a 6 string so I believe the shorter bars would be adequate? My hands are medium sized, what diameter(s) and weight(s) would be good to start with?

[Fred Treece]

Try the Dunlop 919 bar. You can get it from the Forum Store.

Playing blues outside the “home” chord position —
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=m0k0hmRVklo

I know you said you’re in E tuning, but open D applies the same open string intervals, just a whole step lower and with heavier string gauges.

Speaking of string gauges, don’t use standard guitar string sets for lap steel. The neck scale length is probably different and different tension is required.
https://www.hawaiiansteel.com/learning/gauges.php#chart

I just thought of two more of my early big mistakes - applying too much pressure with the bar on the strings, and trivializing the importance of muting (blocking) techniques for both hands. Don’t do that, okay?

Also, pay very close attention to your tuning and intonation. Don’t try to cover it all up with vibrato. Just take it slow and either record or listen carefully to what you play. This stuff doesn’t come naturally for most of us.

[Michael Kiese]

Thank you Troy and Glenn for taking the time to give me advice.

Sticking to and learning a single tuning seems a very inportant piece of advice given the number of times its been brought up. Open E is what I intend to start with. Rock and Blues are my preferred genres, not really into country so I don't think the standard C6 would be the one for me to start with from what I've read so far. Unfortunately there's not a lot of instruction for E, but hopefully I'll find enough.

Posture has also been mentioned a few times. Definitely something I need to pay attention to.

I've got a few Shubb bars so far, and another of the same type. I should probably get a round bar or two so I can try them out as well. Any suggestions on this would be great. I'll have a 6 string so I believe the shorter bars would be adequate? My hands are medium sized, what diameter(s) and weight(s) would be good to start with?

Open E is definitely a cool tuning.

Check out David Lindley’s playing with Jackson Browne.

My favorite songs of David’s work is These Days, Running on Empty, and Mercury Blues.

David pretty much stuck to those Open tunings, and had multiple steels in the different Keys.

Off the top of my head, I think Running on Empty is Open A and these Days is Open F.

Pretty much the same tuning as Open E, but transposed.

Also Open E is what Derek trucks and Duane Allman played.

So it’s a good tuning to get familiar with.

Although I love blues slide, I really favor David Lindley’s lyrical and melodic playing in those Open Tunings.

Enjoy!

[Glenn Stanfield]

Fred, by the time I read your recommendation for the 919 bar I had already ordered the 918 from the forum store. It's also 3/4" but 3/13" longer and 1 oz heavier so I think it'll be ok.

I'll consider D, but so far I've seen more material for E-not to say there isnt more D, just that this is my findings so far. Is there any advantage to using heavier strings?

Blocking technique is something I do plan on focusing on from the very beginning. Likewise I'll be conscience of pressure on the bar.

Recently I purchased a Peterson Strobostomp so I could retire my 30+year old Boss TU-12. This new tuner is amazingly quick to indicate a note so my plan is to keep my steel plugged into it to help me with my intonation as I develope my left hand/ear coordination.

Mike, I definitely enjoy Jackson Browne, I do see another album purchase in my near future. Thanks, once again, for your help.

Thank you both for the time and effort of these posts.

Injury Prevention is another reason I found reinforcing the importance of good posture. Thank you Fred for providing the link that led to this.

[Allan Revich]

I’m gonna double down on a bad habit that’s already been mentioned here. It’s one I still haven’t been able to shake. Find one tuning and go deep—pretend that there are no other tunings. And starting with a 6th tuning will save you a lot of grief down the road; something I regretfully avoided for years.

C6 is the de facto standard, but if you really want to stick with E, consider starting with E6, E B E G# C# E. There’s a reason that nearly every modern (post 1940!) tuning has a 6th in it somewhere

My experience has been that while I can play my favourite music genres in open D or open G, spending too much time in those tunings has stifled my growth on lap steel.

[Stanislav Paskalev]

Never stop moving the bar. If I remember correctly this was advice that Jerry Byrd gave to a forum member here (was it Rick?). I learned to play vertically, across string and while it works it doesn't really sound like steel. So now I'm learning to play horizontally.

The other thing, learn music theory and the possible substitutions in your genre of choice. Steel will be more limited in note options than the fretted guitar so you will inevitably and quite soon need to choose which notes to drop, which notes to replace and which chords to alter when playing stuff, especially when you're arranging songs for the instrument.